http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#82d6efda-53a0-4a0f-8360-55a124767df3 Always worth remembering and re-reading, no matter how basic it may seem --np -- http://esozone.com Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:21:48 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#82d6efda-53a0-4a0f-8360-55a124767df3 Esozone 2008-12-08T20:21:48Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#1c6b1f24-50de-4720-b1fc-12ef6374599d And alas, as you write that, you yourself has gone down that path of shooting down. Sun, 16 Nov 2008 08:39:54 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#1c6b1f24-50de-4720-b1fc-12ef6374599d $item.owner.firstName 2008-11-16T08:39:54Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#b0408e69-97fd-42a7-9887-c7c8fed221cc I would also add that your item #4 is really the only way an "external" effect can occur... I think an implicit point revealed in your #3 is that there is no "external" reality, therefore, change oneself, change external reality... though what is a real "change" of oneself is a very subtle and intriguing question, since internal changes aren't really so objectively measurable, though external ones are quite noticable. But I don't think the two can be separated since they never truly are.. the illusion that we are is part of why we are enslaved by appearances ;-). I wonder about some of your ideas in #3, I don't think it is so arbitrary as you mention, perhaps I am misreading, perhaps you are merely drawing out an aspect of a point that isn't important to this discussion, but I do believe that there is both an arbitrariness to the generation of "shared" thought-forms and yet also a fundamental nature to how these thought forms that manifest as physical reality arises. That nature is not so arbitary, but the "golden thread" of various religions that seem to make up their common ideas. Anyway, very interesting post! Thank you again! p Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:26:11 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#b0408e69-97fd-42a7-9887-c7c8fed221cc Phillip 2008-11-14T17:26:11Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#46e2d8cc-86b4-4945-8dc7-4aef77966ec8 I think the "secret" elements of your idea in #2 are essentially presented in your item #3. I think often we overthink the forces that are this matirxing power... what is "secret" about them is that these thought-forms are merely unconscious... though unravelling this "merely" is a life-work or multiple life-work in and of itself. In my tradition we say that "reality manifests as we EXPECT it to...." which sounds so SIMPLE... EXPECT something different, right? Ah, but its all those unconscious expectations!!! Very cool post! But I'm going to return to this post and probe more, reflect more and so on... thanks again! p Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:16:47 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#46e2d8cc-86b4-4945-8dc7-4aef77966ec8 Phillip 2008-11-14T17:16:47Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#5608a332-505c-4754-87f7-8090ea01240b Thank you for your thoughtful post Cuindless! This is my problem with Tribe, why I don't post anymore and rarely read posts here anymore. Too often when someone posts a constructive conversation or interesting ideas, it invokes a sea of people trying to shoot the thoughts down. Rarely do I see these "shooters" posting something thoughtful or constructive themselves on these forums... it seems to be the nature of the shaddim, however. All they can do is tear down... ;-) Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:11:03 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#5608a332-505c-4754-87f7-8090ea01240b Phillip 2008-11-14T17:11:03Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#eb48eaae-506d-4891-b5e4-cd1f347e13ac It would seem to me Shane that you are looking for Cuindless to offer you something in the way of wisdom or inspiration. Asking for specifics and to be "engaged". It would seem that you are looking, not for a discussion, but for a teacher. I would suggest either joining the discussion in which you might offer some of your own thoughts on these paradigm suggestions, or looking for your teacher elsewhere. I for one think that I would fall personally into the combination paradigm. I have found a great deal of inspiration and compelling in all of the accepted "systems" of magic and have always felt that the blending would seem the most likely way to yield growth. Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:58:23 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#eb48eaae-506d-4891-b5e4-cd1f347e13ac Erny 2008-10-05T14:58:23Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#f72feaba-8c55-4fb2-9726-3c95c90fe1af While I hear you on all points, how can he broaden his horizons if he give us blanket generalizations that in the long run is relative anyway. Where are the major specifics? All he has given is his view, without giving us something to work with. More over he talks of magic(k) and yet doesn't give us "his" definition of such. There are infinite paths up the mountain, each person is on their own path. I don't see how these generalizations allow us to truly engage with the material. I guess that would be my critique: Each person has different path, and thus their own vocabulary and meanings. So if you want to talk about magic, then define it, in your own words. Don't let people assume what you are talking about. Sat, 04 Oct 2008 01:36:18 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#f72feaba-8c55-4fb2-9726-3c95c90fe1af $item.owner.firstName 2008-10-04T01:36:18Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#f1ae9c90-6451-40c2-832b-e77bb112f482 I don't think he was trying to present "facts" I think this was more like academic review and discussion by your peers. I believe, based upon our discussion, that he was looking for review and critique, to further grow expand, and perhaps be able to broaden his perceptions. You ask how these patterns arrive us to a higher consciousness? By engagin our reason and logic, which can help us "climb the mountain" (to use a metaphor).. Fri, 03 Oct 2008 16:42:52 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#f1ae9c90-6451-40c2-832b-e77bb112f482 hermeticbear 2008-10-03T16:42:52Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#00cd281f-fa41-42d7-9e94-2e7ee8a45fab That's bullshit. It was Sartre who talked about how no man is naturally anything, but rather their actions that dictate who they are. If you act heroic, then you are a hero, act cowardly, then you are a coward. Thusly, if you are trying to teach facts, that makes you a teacher(as far as this thread goes). My point is this. You can spew a bunch of "facts" at us, but in the end, you are just mentally masturbating(not that such is a bad thing per se). But how do these patterns arrive us to a higher consciousness? You wrote it, you needed to share it, but why? If you can't answer me this, then no, you are not asking the right questions. Fri, 03 Oct 2008 00:34:36 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#00cd281f-fa41-42d7-9e94-2e7ee8a45fab $item.owner.firstName 2008-10-03T00:34:36Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#e9f3db01-bb18-4922-b872-a66ca58370c0 > "Where is a piece of information we can all relate with?" Relating a piece of wisdom to a student is the duty of a guru. I am not a guru. Look at these paradigms and ask yourself which seems most appropriate to you as a magus and examine that. I don't have the answers. I only ask the right questions... Thu, 02 Oct 2008 05:03:23 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#e9f3db01-bb18-4922-b872-a66ca58370c0 Cuindless 2008-10-02T05:03:23Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#8774feac-cbbc-4823-81d1-ae68b827dce4 So what is the point? You have shown a great mastery of words and books. But other than that, what is the point? Where is a piece of information we can all relate with? Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:54:07 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#8774feac-cbbc-4823-81d1-ae68b827dce4 $item.owner.firstName 2008-10-02T01:54:07Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#32d0a5a7-94a9-4e1d-bb4b-553d98a052a8 Go right ahead. Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:30:15 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#32d0a5a7-94a9-4e1d-bb4b-553d98a052a8 Cuindless 2008-10-01T13:30:15Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#278b4283-a867-4acd-9152-9a54baef70dc Thankyou sister Wed, 01 Oct 2008 04:53:12 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#278b4283-a867-4acd-9152-9a54baef70dc Juvenal "Tonatiuh" 2008-10-01T04:53:12Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#fc416cde-26bd-4ee7-9cac-691516629279 I like this list... hahaha would you mind if i repost it elsewhere...? Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:33:46 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#fc416cde-26bd-4ee7-9cac-691516629279 orpheus 2008-09-13T12:33:46Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#be11c936-102b-45b9-9ab4-f1cc20e29314 thanks can do! Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:53:35 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#be11c936-102b-45b9-9ab4-f1cc20e29314 hermeticbear 2008-09-11T14:53:35Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#2a3b0c19-af2b-487d-ad50-97c6daa8214e I have plenty of disposable income. I'll take a look for it. I highly recommend Julia Zay's "Ecstasia". Its available on amazon for about 20$. Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:53:19 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#2a3b0c19-af2b-487d-ad50-97c6daa8214e Cuindless 2008-09-10T21:53:19Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#3e89bc20-15ac-4efa-8c9f-77a30445a9e8 Conjure in African American Society by Jeffrey E. Anderson I haven't read this book ( I understand is it out of print and/or expensive) The Fabled Doctor Jim Jordan, A Story of Conjure by F. Roy Johnson. Wed, 10 Sep 2008 18:40:03 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#3e89bc20-15ac-4efa-8c9f-77a30445a9e8 hermeticbear 2008-09-10T18:40:03Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#351afd06-1e66-4a27-b0fa-072ad1340e05 Richard, I appreciate your point of view, but I will be frank with you for a moment. You perceive I have no experience, and that is fine. I will point out, however, that you know me based on a few posts that I make on this forum. For all you know, I'm a 3rd degree Wiccan priest, an Adeptus Major in some OGD order, a 32nd degree Freemason and a self-proclaimed Magus. Or, I could be a sentient water buffalo with opposable thumbs. My point is, in the vast, unknowable sea of the internet the claims of knowledge don't matter. What matters is the argument. I have perceived, during my time practicing hermetic magic, a specific group of paradigms wherein magic might exist. I am learned. I have a graduate degree. I won't cite any further credentials here because, not only are they unprovable, they're also immaterial. The point is, these are the paradigms I've perceived. You've done nothing so far but indict the nature of knowledge and book learning. While this might make you seem wise and powerful, they don't further the conversation. The previous discussor did so by recommending courses of study and presenting specific points of disagreement. All you've done so far is say, "Oooo, you've read a book, but until u know god like I do, ur a noob!" I've never claimed to be a guru... even in "studies". In fact, I'm just a student of phenomena. Do you have any *specific* criticisms or suggestions? Any books, statements, "theories" or ideas to present? I await them with a ready and open mind. Thu, 04 Sep 2008 05:48:30 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#351afd06-1e66-4a27-b0fa-072ad1340e05 Cuindless 2008-09-04T05:48:30Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#1a40db0d-ef65-47c2-a3b3-2979d9efda45 interesting topic and all is good but everyones idea of religion has been their own the only thing we do have that seperates thoery and fact in experiance of the divine but not to get lost by other peoples books or ideas.We can all say ooo that sounds good but when you add your own idea it must come from experiance not just because you have read alot of books and that makes you a guru in studies.I will say again the only think that seperates knowledge from fact and science is the experiance within what your looking for because it all revolves around one thing its wether we see it thats what makes the search fun.Good points but so many try to disprove religion and true divine incounters as just your mind but there is a difference between them.You sound like a person who reads alot but has little experiance about what your talking about those out there that have open'd the door to the divine knows what I mean. Thu, 04 Sep 2008 05:25:23 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#1a40db0d-ef65-47c2-a3b3-2979d9efda45 Richard 2008-09-04T05:25:23Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#43579d4e-950e-44de-a374-454359c5e417 Did you have a specific reference that you'd like me to look into? Europe's Inner Demons has an extensive section on the folkloric magic of post-Christian Europe. "Ecstasia" by Julia R. Zay also looks quite extensively at the folk magic traditions of modern Europe and their representation in historical context. Was there another book that you think I should look into? Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:13:59 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#43579d4e-950e-44de-a374-454359c5e417 Cuindless 2008-09-03T19:13:59Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#4bf02fb1-4cb1-4d52-bd6d-aa3895467103 thanks, I will look for those books. I think that is a mistake to classify all the body of spiritual beings that can aid in magic under "religious" as they are not always religious. I think you should study folk magic, and see what is said about that. Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:34:49 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#4bf02fb1-4cb1-4d52-bd6d-aa3895467103 hermeticbear 2008-09-03T18:34:49Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#742e5ffc-3f98-43d0-9a11-6cdca58d7b71 > "I believe that statement only applies to specific sects of Christianity and other abrahamic religions." Perhaps your understanding of pre-Christian pagan religions and their relationship with magical practice is lacking. I direct you to "Arcana Mundi" by Georg Luck, "Europe's Inner Demons" by Norman Cohn and "A History of Pagan Europe" by Prudence Jones. YOu will find that in classical Rome, Greece and Egypt there was a definitive difference in how the priests of each religion regarded their own magical practice versus how they regarded both the magical practices of other cultures and the magical practices of lay people within their own cultures. The Flamen and Pontifices of Rome, for example, were exceedingly derisive of the early Christians, the Jews, the Egyptians and the "superstitious" Greeks. Likewise, the classical Greeks considered the practice of magic outside of established church hierarchy abhorrent. Practitioners of Sanatana Dharma and its descendent religion, Buddhism, are two that come to mind as being tolerant of magical practices that don't belong to their own religious system. > "Your theories also seem to exclude spirits, beings that are perceived as different and able to make things happen, but not necessarily divine." Not so. I group them in with the first category since, fundamentally, spirits and gods are the same and only differ in power level. Angels, demons, daemons, spirits and djinn all exist as spiritual, divine forces found in religious doctrine. > "Also, traditional European and American folk magic, for the most part, is thought of in a Christian context, that is power granted by a divine being, namedly God and Jesus, and they recognize that it is not miracles, but they don't call it witchcraft (if they only work for good)." I'm afraid I don't fully understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that Christian priests condone the use of magic as being from God and Jesus? Or are you saying that practitioners of European and American folk magic consider their powers as coming from God and Jesus? Further, how does this in any way contradict what I'm saying earlier? Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:49:44 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#742e5ffc-3f98-43d0-9a11-6cdca58d7b71 Cuindless 2008-09-03T03:49:44Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#ebbd0b10-add5-4847-b37d-329959371a55 I have a strong disagreement with this statement "Practitioners of the religious paradigm typically consider their magic to be "miracles" and the magic of other religions to be "witchcraft." I believe that statement only applies to specific sects of Christianity and other abrahamic religions. Your theories also seem to exclude spirits, beings that are perceived as different and able to make things happen, but not necessarily divine. Also, traditional European and American folk magic, for the most part, is thought of in a Christian context, that is power granted by a divine being, namedly God and Jesus, and they recognize that it is not miracles, but they don't call it witchcraft (if they only work for good). Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:35:59 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#ebbd0b10-add5-4847-b37d-329959371a55 hermeticbear 2008-09-02T16:35:59Z http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#95baf88e-8188-4b85-b61f-77f05a559ba3 For magic to exist and work as a phenomenon, we must imagine a system where it can. Theoretically speaking, then, there can be number of systems where magic would feasibly exist. Some of these purport to be scientific, while others are clearly unscientific. Please note that my use of the term "unscientific" does not denote a judgement of the truth of the concept, it merely represents a statement of scientific fact. Because I love lists, I will present the magical paradigms I perceive in list format. 1. The Religious Paradigm. Magic is a power granted by divine beings. Practitioners of the religious paradigm typically consider their magic to be "miracles" and the magic of other religions to be "witchcraft". Particularly tolerant members of the religious paradigm, such as Wiccans, accept the magic of other religions to be true miracles and simply debate the source. The failure of religious magic to create scientifically replicable results is easily explained by the nature of the divine. In the anthropomorphic religions of the classical Greeks and Egyptians (but less so the Romans...), the gods were seen as fickle and arbitrary. In the modern religions of Abraham (Christianity, Judaism and Islam), "God" works in "mysterious ways". These concepts make the Religious Paradigm unfalsifiable and, therefore, unscientific. 2. The Secret Science Paradigm. Magic exists as a web of unseen connections and energies. The power of distant stars accurately fortells the future via astrology because those distant stars emit an energy that is hitherto unknown to science. The secret science paradigm is most often encountered by self-professed psychics who believe that their abilities are simply an unknown form of scientific learning. Practitioners of the sacred science paradigm point to alchemy before the discovery of the molecule and medicine before the discovery of the microbe as perfect examples of secret science. Alchemists and physicians of classical and medieval times worked with the knowledge they had to produce results. Psychics of today do the same thing until such a time as "psychic energy" is quantified. 3. The Universe as Illusion Paradigm. The universe is fundamentally made up of shared perceptions. Alter enough perceptions and you alter reality. What is reality other than a shared delusion? Magic is the practice of altering perceptions to reshape reality in favor of the magician. By causing others to share your delusion, you create or superimpose your own reality. Practitioners of the universe as illusion paradigm often focus on so-called "eastern" schools of mysticism, especially Vedic/Hindu mysticism, as an explanation. . 4. The Altered Self Paradigm. Magic has no external effect. The true purpose of magic is to harvest an inner effect. Magic allows practitioners to awaken with new freshness, see the world as it really is and face every day with a sense of being. Through the practice of magic, the altered self paradigm allows practitioners to grow more in touch with their own selves. By altering ourselves we can grow stronger mentally, physically and emotionally. 5. The Combination Paradigm. This paradigm simply combines two or more of the paradigms above. Religious magicians may also believe that the world is an illusion. Secret scientists may point to the placebo effect as an explanation of the altered self paradigm. There are 11 possible combinations: 1+2 (Divine Science), 1+3 (Religious Illusion), 1+4 (Ecstatic), 1+2+3 (Hermetic), 1+2+4 (Ascetic), 1+3+4 (Yogic), 2+3 ("Quantum"), 2+4 (Placebic), 2+3+4 (Self-Deific), 3+4 (Psychedlic) and 1+2+3+4 (Pan-Deific). Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:24:55 GMT http://hermeticism.tribe.net/thread/0ff0e348-3a63-4f46-a26b-caf02ab16e68#95baf88e-8188-4b85-b61f-77f05a559ba3 Cuindless 2008-09-02T05:24:55Z